Dota 2 Wiki:Discussion/Archive6

Preparations

 * Completely new (and initially empty) wikis would have to be spun up for each language you intend to keep.


 * The interwiki prefix table Special:Interwiki would have to be edited to point to each separate (non-english) instance


 * What do we do with /de /vi /th /pt-br pages?
 * If they stay on the english wiki, there's little point in moving /ru and /zh in the first place because we keep the hazard of language specific coding. Molldust (talk) 09:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not 100% sure on which languages to keep. Ideally I'd like to keep, in order of importance: /ru -> /zh -> /pt-br -> /de -> /th -> /vi -> /es -> /fr. Everything else can go. But if that's too much work then everything after /de is negotiable. I just feel kinda bad for the people who put so much work into /vi and /th. - Lemoncake  (talk) 10:51, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * User:SiegelZ would do /pt-br, User:Bu3ny and me could work on /de. Molldust (talk) 17:25, 4 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Wikis can only share the image store, everything else (i.e. all other namespaces) must be duplicated.
 * The only blocker is SMW regarding this issue. Molldust (talk) 09:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Are all media files shared, sound/video etc? - Lemoncake  (talk) 10:51, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * We've had some hiccups with sound files in the past, but i believe this had been fixed. I will ask in the new year. — Game widow (talk) 13:18, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


 * All the pages for a given language would have to be exported from the english wiki and imported to the new separate wiki
 * If this can be done automatically together with a page rename (Items/ru -> Items), it's no problem. Should probably be made for these four namespaces: main, main_talk, category, category_talk. Molldust (talk) 09:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * "If" is a big word. To export all the Russian pages, for example, someone would first have to comb through your 40K+ pages and identify them. By default the export process only exports what you tell it to and the only grouping i know of to tell it to selected all pages within a category. Have a look at Special:Export, you'll see. If you can group all the pages you want to export into separate language-based categories, that would make the process much simpler. Any renaming then would take place between the export and the import. That involves manually editing the exported XML file, but it's entirely manual. Removing "/ru" from page names is a trivial search and replace, i agree, but translations of titles are page by page. — Game widow (talk) 13:25, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Including redirects, I find 11731 /ru pages, and 495 /ru categories. Medoke  18:34, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * We would keep the english page titles for the start. This way the links won't be as broken and the transition can be made over time with more editors. Molldust (talk) 23:24, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


 * All the templates would have to be duplicated on the new wikis and fixed to work in the new environment.
 * Category:Templates are not too many and it's a very good reason for a cleanup. They will work by default on the new wiki, they need no functional adaption. Only the translation strings will have to updated, but at least show english by default. Molldust (talk) 09:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


 * All the links would have to be updated on both wikis
 * English links will not be affected by default. Non-en links will break and there's no way around it. Many pages will be moved to language specific names anyway. Bots will be able to fix selected links, but not all links in general. Molldust (talk) 09:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Template:Lang would have to either be completely rewritten to work entirely differently, or removed (with all the work that goes into that since it's used by most of your templates)
 * I hope the template is gone once the the process is complete.


 * SMW properties will have to be redone on the other language wikis. High priority!
 * Redoing the properties is peanuts. Filling them with information is tricky because ideally we want to share the SMW values across languages. We should look at mw:Extension:External_Data or have any sort of plan for this. Molldust (talk) 09:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * That's not one of our default extensions, so it would have to be submitted for vetting. I have no control over that process other than to ask for vetting process. If the extension is not accepted, what would you do? — Game widow (talk) 13:18, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * mw:Extension:Translate is very intrusive to the english pages and requires all non-EN pages to be retranslated. Furthermore it may not work across different subdomains anyway and is not part of the default extension set. I'm out of ideas honestly. Manually updating all stats and values on 3+ wikis doesn't sound manageable, if you have no means of comparing the translation progress between the pages. Molldust (talk) 23:24, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Figured out that SMW properties are incompatible... well that makes it easy. No more wrapping - everything will be done once by "hand/script". Molldust (talk) 17:25, 4 January 2017 (UTC)


 * English wiki must not break in the process!
 * By default, as long as only language pages are removed, this wiki suffers no damage. Molldust (talk) 09:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Will /zh-hans also be moved and called dota2-zh.gamepedia.com? If so, can we deprecate/remove zh-hant?
 * Ideally there would be a switcher thing between simplified and traditional, like Minecraft wiki does. It's not a huge priority though, most views are to /zh-hans. - Lemoncake  (talk) 10:51, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * If minecraft uses some sort of switcher, i am unaware of it and you would have to coordinate with them to figure out what they do. — Game widow (talk) 13:18, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This is great --Dotalim0204 (talk) 11:44, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * That's probably not even the full list of considerations
 * Feel free to edit and comment. Molldust (talk) 09:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Migration process
We are ready to go my opinion. I don't know how the transfer works exactly. I guess it works like this:

Paging Game widow right now. Hopefully that's everything that must be done and good luck to the translators! Lemon might want to make a reddit announcement.

Responsibilities are most likely going to look like this. Doesn't mean everything has to work after a week, but just so that somebody can delete/move pages. Molldust (talk) 12:30, 21 January 2017 (UTC)


 * rip dota zh-hant xD but may i know how that switcher works in template? --Dotalim0204 (talk) 03:14, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, PT is better than PT-BR. SiegelZ (talk) 03:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

New Subdomains Are Ready (Admins please read!)
All four new language wikis have been set up. Users in the brackets will be assigned administrator positions. In order for me to make you an admin, you must log in to the site first! - Lemoncake  (talk) 18:29, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Russian (Medoke)
 * Chinese (Elite stay, Dotalim0204)
 * German (Bu3ny, Molldust)
 * Portuguese (SiegelZ)

User:Game widow is in the process of importing all templates from the English wiki. Priority on non-English wikis should be mostly on keeping hero, item, and mechanics pages up to date. Everything else (hats, etc) are less important.

List of tasks that need to be done to finish the migration (add more if needed):


 * 1) Fetch all /lang pages with a query
 * 2) Export all /lang pages with Special:Export
 * 3) Rename all pages and links from Page/lang to Page on a local PC
 * 4) Import to the new wiki via Special:Import
 * 5) Complain about all the broken stuff
 * 6) Fix everything
 * 7) Delete the /lang pages from the en wiki
 * 8) Remove language templates from all templates
 * 9) Make reddit announcement once all wikis are presentable


 * ok np --Dotalim0204 (talk) 07:08, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Talent infobox, adding to "sources of..."
Like items and skills, there should be a simple infobox for eg Viper first Lvl 20 talent, so they can be added to "sources of..." pages.

Evasion, cooldown reduction and spell amplification all need the talents added to them. The 4 spells and items which grant gold can now have all the +passive gold talents added to the list, and Respawn time could be tweaked to replace the huge table with a simple list, followed by the ways the respawn timer can be altered (bloodstone, scythe, list of talents, buyback adding time to next death)

Personally I think all the talents which add stats or improve traits based on str/agi/int can be added to the relevant pages, but shouldn't be mixed in with the current lists.


 * Of course it would be nice, but we just don't have the time to do this for every mechanics page. Any volunteers would be welcome. - Lemoncake  (talk) 22:55, 10 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Work in progress: Template:TalentListRich Molldust (talk) 21:30, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Maintenance templates
What do you think would be the best template name for an article/section that is currently being updated / constructed?
 * Template:Update (is maybe deprecated by Template:Outdated)
 * Template:Updating
 * Template:WorkInProgress
 * Template:Wip
 * Template:UnderConstruction
 * Template:Construction

Same question for an article that lacks specific information that is not obtainable (as opposed to a Template:Stub where the info is simply not inserted yet.)?
 * Template:Missing
 * Template:Needinfo (should this converted to an Template:Ambox?)

What to do with the following?
 * Template:Help wanted
 * Template:Intromissing

Molldust (talk) 18:02, 28 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I use Template:Updating if I currently work on something, and Template:Outdated if something needs updating but I don't work on it currently.


 * Template:Needinfo should stay as it is, since it serves a different purpose. I never had the need for an ambox version of it. Also, Template:Help wanted is good enough for this.


 * Intromissing seems pointless. I'd remove it.
 *  Bu3ny  (talk) 18:49, 28 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Template:Updating, Template:Outdated, Template:UnderConstruction and Template:Needinfo are the ones we use these days, all the other ones are from long ago when the wiki was being set up. - Lemoncake  (talk) 19:04, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I like the Gear page for heroes. Shouldn't those pages also list emoticons and equipment for other heroes which references them, like Treant's default skin (bark?) having "riki was here" on riki's page, and the tiny axe plushie on that witch doctor item?

Subwikis with flag
Example: Earthshaker Not? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SiegelZ (talk) 19:40, 18 March 2017 (UTC)


 * It's a good idea IMO, not sure how to implement across wikis though - Lemoncake  (talk) 04:07, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Molldust said that this could be automated so that they appear on their own when the pages exist.  Bu3ny  (talk) 11:41, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I only mentioned that the current system is outdated with the lang tags on the page itself and a new system is in place for Wikipedia, called WikiData. It acts as a central wiki where all languages register their localized page to the according english page. Here in this example the flag is just an alternative display of the Language section in the left menu bar. Maybe there's a way to do this with CSS and JS only, but it's way easier to modify the skin itself (current one is Hydra). None of us has access to the backend code, so scrap this. Inserting a template such as pt:Template:Lang1 doesn't sound very promising tbh. Molldust (talk) 14:17, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * "doesn't sound very promising" Okay ._. I thought it was a good idea because the Mobile version did not display subwikis on my smartphone, only in the Desktop version SiegelZ (talk) 19:12, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

On mobile there should be a button at the end with the label "Read in another language" (it's there for me). You should post the issue on Slack with your Android/iOS version and mobile browser.

The problem with the template is that you have to insert it at every page, that's why I don't find it promising. There are ways to do it with JS and CSS, but it's like digging a hole with a spoon. And I know it's easier by modifying the skin itself. That's the thing with 3rd party wiki hosts, you have to work with what you have. Molldust (talk) 21:12, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

What do we do with undocumented change?
Such as AA's lvl 20 right talent got changed to +400 HP in 7.06. --66.76.81.9 05:26, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Already included in version changes. Medoke  09:20, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Correct spelling of 'esports'
The Associated Press' 2017 AP Style Guide officially spells the word "esports", and so should we. No "eSports", "e-sports", "E-Sports" or similar.

It is similar to how "e-Mail" transformed with usage to "email".

Here and here is an article on that matter.


 * I don't think it's a biggy, but sure, you can change it to "esports" wherever you find it spelled differently on the wiki. --Psion1C (talk) 10:18, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Infobox Rework
I wanted to suggest creating a "main" inbox template, and creating the individual inbox templates by using this "main" template. The advantage of this would be, that it would help unify the look of the wiki pages, and to modify the design of all Inbox templates. As it is now, we have multiple different infobox designs (Template:Company infobox, Template:Infobox Player, Template:Infobox Commentator, …).

With my suggested rework, the individual templates would only define traits (Name, ID, Image, …) and the corresponding values, and the design is handled by the designated Inbox template.

EDIT: This would probably only work for the "simple" Inbox templates. More specialised ones like Template:Hero infobox and Template:Unit infobox would have to stay as they are I think.--Litzsch (talk) 09:39, 28 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Is this just for eSports stuff? Sure, go ahead - Lemoncake  (talk) 17:07, 28 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Yeah the hero and Item infoboxes are way to different from the standard ones. I just implemented the new Template:Infobox Main on the Template:Infobox Team and it seems to work fine as far as I can see. Other Infoboxes that I think could use this template to unify their look are:
 * Template:Company infobox
 * Template:Infobox Commentator
 * Template:Infobox Player
 * Template:Infobox Studio
 * Template:Tournament infobox
 * Template:Website infobox
 * Does anyone have any input or feedback before I change more templates to use Template:Infobox Main? --Litzsch (talk) 18:22, 28 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Looks good, go ahead - Lemoncake  (talk) 19:01, 28 July 2017 (UTC)


 * The infoboxes for summoned units seem to be recently broken on the mobile version of the site, being rendered behind the infobox of the spell creating them. Did this rework break that? Prezombie (talk) 20:55, 24 August 2017 (UTC)


 * No, this rework was for other infoboxes only as written in the previous comments. I have this problem on my mobile for a while already, so it's no recent change that broke it. I assume it has to do with the CSS property "flex", but not sure, gotta ask Molldust. --Psion1C (talk) 21:19, 24 August 2017 (UTC)


 * It's an issue of how float interacts with any variable/flexible content. The "proper" solution would be to better integrate the infobox into the text flow (without float). Responsive design is hard as fuck :/
 * Back on topic: Template:Infobox Main can replace Template:Infobox. Ideally it wouldn't use a table layout, but divs instead. Template:Item infobox is the closest so far. Molldust (talk) 15:46, 25 August 2017 (UTC)


 * It seems your last edit on Template:Ability fixed the issue with overlapping ability boxes and unit infoboxes (including hero infoboxes). However, for some reason the issue still persists with item infoboxes (see e.g. Blink Dagger on a small display). Any idea why and how to fix it (probably related to Template:Item infobox as the other infoboxes do work)? --Psion1C (talk) 09:58, 2 September 2017 (UTC)


 * We'd know if we had a common div-based Template:Infobox .-. Molldust (talk) 12:38, 2 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I think I know why it happens, and probably also how to fix it. I noticed it's the cooldown/mana part of the ability box and the divs with "display:inline-block;". They should probably use flex elements instead. Planning on cleaning-up Template:Ability soon again anyway, unless you wanna look into it now. --Psion1C (talk) 11:23, 4 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Also while we're at the topic of Infoboxes, there are currently three different naming schemes for infoboxes. It's either,   or   (see Category:Infobox templates). They should probably all follow a consistent naming scheme.--Litzsch (talk) 18:20, 6 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I vote for "Template: infobox", as I see no reason to capitalize "infobox" and also prefer the order. --Psion1C (talk) 11:10, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Tournament Tiers
With the new majors and minors, we'll probably need to rework the tournament tiers, accurately reflect the tournaments. As it is right now, On the wiki the order of importance is:
 * Major -> Premium -> Minor -> …

With the new system I believe it should be something like this:
 * Valve -> Major -> Minor -> Premium -> …

With Valve tournaments (ti an the old majors) being in a tier of their own. --Litzsch (talk) 20:20, 2 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I think that old tournaments not need to be changed to a new system, only tournaments after TI will be Minor, Major and Valve. Medoke  20:29, 2 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I just think it will be really confusing, to have the new "Minors" be tournaments of the type major. Also leaving the tiers as they are results in TI (~23 million), Majors (~1 million) and Minors {~500k) all being in the same category and being displayed as being of the same importance in the Tournaments panel on the front page.--Litzsch (talk) 20:50, 2 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The only Valve tournament will be The International afaik. Then there will be Majors (minimum prize pool of $500k) and Minors (minimum prize pool of $150k), but only if a tournament meets all requirements (e.g. at least one qualifier from each of the six primary regions - NA, SA, SEA, CN, EU, and CIS). All other tournaments would fall into a final fourth tier (which probably could further be split into subtiers). --Psion1C (talk) 21:04, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Adding talent abilities
What do you think about adding talent abilities to the hero pages now that some talents provide entirely new abilities (like Backtrack on Void)?--Litzsch (talk) 15:17, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * To illustrate what I mean see User:Litzsch/Sandbox4. This would of course have to be a separate ability type and only be done for Talents that add completely new abilities (like Invoker's Cataclysm and Void's Backtrack) that are not self-explanatory.--Litzsch (talk) 16:33, 7 November 2017 (UTC)


 * We already have this in place. See Lich for example. Talents which grant entirely new things will get a box. Cataclysm is a part of Sun Strike and won't get a box.  Bu3ny  (talk) 22:55, 7 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Oh that's great I've never seen that! Backtrack should propably get one then since it's an entirely new ability imo.--Litzsch (talk) 22:59, 7 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Then, another one to add would be Undying's Reincarnation which is not part of another skills itself. FeliasSnape (talk) 12:57, 10 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Probably both PA's level 15 talents should be "abilities".


 * Those are not really unique abilities. Both armor corruption and cleave are basic concepts in Dota that most players should understand. Talent abilities should be reserved for talents that are not self-explanatory and/or have special mechanics attached to them imo.--Litzsch (talk) 11:09, 15 November 2017 (UTC)


 * They should be added because there are values which we need to have in the SMW system. For example, Corruption duration, or the cleave areas, or the illusion mana burn value of the mana break, etc.  Bu3ny  (talk) 11:41, 15 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Same thoughts as Bu3ny. And now PA corruption talent event got an icon.


 * 1. Thanks to both of you for adding "talented-abilities" for PA and Alchemist, added another one for Doom and accumulated them in the Cleave-mechanic page (someone check, please, just in case).
 * 2. Bu3ny and everyone - what do you think about listing order in mechanic pages? Should it be always listed simply alphabetically or (as I'd prefer for viewer's convenience) in order like this: hero abilities -> before item abilities -> before unit's abilities ? Talent's can be listed together with abilities or right after them. As an illustration of what I'm talking about - compare mana break list with mute, basic dispel and strong dispel lists: the latter is much better IMO.172.31.43.88

Hero infobox template error
Hero Infobox calculates regen amp incorrectly, it should be 100 times more (or don't have percent sign on the end). Like for example Abbadon has +16.1% (or +0.161) health regen amplifixation on level 1, not 0.161% like his page claims. I don't know how to edit templates but someone should fix this.


 * Use the talk topic on Template talk:Hero infobox. I'll try to fix this if it becomes unprotected. Sanhard (talk)

Morphling Interaction
has unique interaction. It is unlike spell steal interaction, for example, Morphling can't get flying vision on firefly, but Rubick can until he lose the ability. So it should own its page or add an icon in Ability box. --Elite stay (talk) 18:01, 20 November 2017 (UTC)


 * It should be noted on Morpha and Firefly then. I remember that Flying Vision was purposely disabled for Rubick at some point and was re-enabled later. From that I deduce that the vision is not tied to Firefly as expected. But it's just a theory. Molldust (talk) 18:31, 20 November 2017 (UTC)


 * It's definitely not worth to add an icon in Ability box, but adding it's own page - probably yes, cause it's looks like there are too many things that should be described (too many for notes) - interaction with talents, with summoning abilities, with pathing/vision interactions, interactions with Rubick (some of them already mentioned) and Doom (Devour and extra abilities) etc.172.31.33.176

Gemepedia replacing SMW
I just saw on the help wiki that Gamepedia is planning to replace the SMW extension with a new extension named Cargo. (see here) Does anyone know when this will happen?--Litzsch (talk) 11:58, 22 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Moving Cargo to SMW shouldn't be too much trouble (TM), the syntax/functionality is very similar. If we had an overlap period while both extensions are active that would be the least intrusive solution most likely.
 * Things that will mostly NOT work out of the box in the same manner: Comma as decimal separator, subobjects, SMW object categorization.
 * Things that rely on SMW and would have urgent priority for the migration: Front page (Template:Hero label) and Version notes (Template:A/Template:I/Template:U/Template:H).
 * Things that shouldn't break: The infoboxes only declare the properties, but don't rely on them. Means the Hero/Item/Unit pages should remain somewhat functional.
 * Molldust (talk) 19:10, 22 November 2017 (UTC)


 * We should propably ask the guys from Curse to enable Cargo for us imo and start transitioning templates (using both Cargo and SMW at the same time as suggested here). We seem to be (at least one of) the wiki that uses SMW the heaviest (we have 5 times the property values of the next biggest wiki I checked) so it might take a lot of time to update everything.